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Old 11-19-2015, 10:46 PM   #61
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the losses they are experiencing are not sustainable and expect a reduction in earnings for the fourth quarter of $425 million
And this is were the failure is IMHO. In my vision of the Worls, health care isn't supposed to generate benefits.
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:41 PM   #62
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And this is were the failure is IMHO. In my vision of the Worls, health care isn't supposed to generate benefits.
Think of the shareholders, and executives, you jerk... those yachts are not going to maintain themselves.

...some people, I swear...
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:46 PM   #63
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Preexisting conditions should not be a factor at this point.

And $24k per year before deductibles and copays is ridiculous. It is almost 50% of the median household income in this country.
Well I guess it's good that I am well above whatever the median is. On my way to being a 1%er! .
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:51 PM   #64
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End of Affordable Care Act?

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You will have to untangle the ACA from the gov to ever get back to trying for single payer. It took a super-majority in congress to get it passed, it will take almost that to ever get rid of it.

There's a lot of ground between leaving it as is and getting rid of it.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:37 AM   #65
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Think of the shareholders, and executives, you jerk... those yachts are not going to maintain themselves.

...some people, I swear...
Small problem though. The majority of shareholders in these companies are like you and I with their retirement accounts in a 401K or Roth IRA and these companies are part and parcel of our portfolios, whether we know it or not.

I divested from health care related companies as much as possible before the ACA was ever passed, but I'm sure some of the mutual funds I have are invested in healthcare companies. Same as millions of other people. When the true health care crash comes, and it will, you will see a lot of people hurt by it.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:42 AM   #66
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Which perhaps further shows the idiocy of for profit healthcare?
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:58 AM   #67
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Which perhaps further shows the idiocy of for profit healthcare?
What do you think will happen to R&D if the carrot of profit is removed from the equation? I bet doctors will start sending you home with leeches instead of rx
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:51 AM   #68
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When the true health care crash comes, and it will, you will see a lot of people hurt by it.
They will get bailed out in the event of a crash.

The ACA turned big insurance companies into a new category of Too Big To Fail.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:09 AM   #69
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I put in my personal time and effort, put my personal funds in and try to help others where I can. If trying to help my fellow man instead of just taking shots at someone else is being righteous I wear that tag proudly.
One reason why even though we disagree kinda frequently you've always had my respect.

The number of people who have their blinders on about universal healthcare pretty much amazes me. Almost without exception every first-world country on the planet has made single payer systems work - the lawmakers who say it won't work have their reelection campaigns funded by the industry they're trying to regulate, IMO.

The problem is bigger than ACA. IM frequently less than HO the biggest part of the problem is that corporations are people too; also we need to make significant progress in tort reform and also IMO drug research should be publicly funded as the only thing that captures Big Pharma's interest are drugs that you have to take for the rest of your life.

Yes, single payer is expensive and everybody who's doing it is subsidizing things through tax dollars, which means taxes would go up. Tax increases are not always a bad thing.

My suggestion? Instead of listening to Big Healthcare-backed talking heads on the issue we have plenty of folks on this board right here who have the right to healthcare now. Do you hear people from Canada or Europe saying single-payer is a bad thing? If you don't, why would you listen to someone who's got a financial interest in the whole mess?

Insurance companies say single payer is bad; big surprise there. Politicians funded by Big Healthcare also say single payer is bad. I suggest we ask the people who live in countries where single payer has actually been implemented how it works for them.

Toeing the party line is intellectually disingenuous and there are sheeple on both sides of the argument. The *facts* are that there are no death boards, single payer will not curve your spine, grow hair on your hands or keep the country from winning the war, and TV commercials and politicians who speak out against single payer are almost without exception beholden to Big Healthcare.

Regurgitating the party line brings us nothing. Single payer = higher taxes but as mentioned higher taxes aren't always a bad thing.

So - instead of people on both sides of the debate rehashing tired arguments maybe we should listen to people who have experience but no financial interest.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:01 AM   #70
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My suggestion? Instead of listening to Big Healthcare-backed talking heads on the issue we have plenty of folks on this board right here who have the right to healthcare now. Do you hear people from Canada or Europe saying single-payer is a bad thing? If you don't, why would you listen to someone who's got a financial interest in the whole mess?
A couple of years ago I got a letter from the NHS asking me to confirm if I still wanted to be registered with my then-current GP. Enclosed with the letter was a form to fill in, and a prepaid return envelope. Unfortunately the return envelope was ever so slightly too small for the form, which I therefore had to fold in order to make it fit. In an entirely free-market system, I bet the envelope would have been exactly the right size for the form to fit without having to fold it.

I'm just saying, there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:12 AM   #71
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A Congress that gave a shit about its constituents would have been tweaking the system since its inception.

Now we have various teams of millionaires trying to bring home the bacon for their overlords. It's kind of like the NFL! The medical lobby is second to none.

I'd rather take my chances with a single payer system.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:13 AM   #72
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A couple of years ago I got a letter from the NHS asking me to confirm if I still wanted to be registered with my then-current GP. Enclosed with the letter was a form to fill in, and a prepaid return envelope. Unfortunately the return envelope was ever so slightly too small for the form, which I therefore had to fold in order to make it fit. In an entirely free-market system, I bet the envelope would have been exactly the right size for the form to fit without having to fold it.

I'm just saying, there are advantages and disadvantages to both systems.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:17 AM   #73
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There's a lot of ground between leaving it as is and getting rid of it.
In my opinion the ACA and single payer are so far apart that they can never co-exist. It became more important politically to get it passed than to really analyze it's effects on the health industry. That's why it's the mess we have now. Unwinding a government program like this is like asking Lug to play good music. I just can't see it happening.
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:52 AM   #74
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also we need to make significant progress in tort reform and also IMO drug research should be publicly funded as the only thing that captures Big Pharma's interest are drugs that you have to take for the rest of your life.
This is part of the equation. Another part (that goes hand in hand) is that there is WAY more money in treating a disease than in curing it. So guess where they put their efforts?
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:06 PM   #75
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What do you think will happen to R&D if the carrot of profit is removed from the equation? I bet doctors will start sending you home with leeches instead of rx

Unfortunate to assume profit is the only motivator for working on improved quality of care, but let's say you're right. Am I willing to accept a decreased improvement in the bleeding edge of medical care in order to make it generally available to all? Absolutely.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:06 PM   #76
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And this is were the failure is IMHO. In my vision of the Worls, health care isn't supposed to generate benefits.
We should just pick and choose what industries are acceptable to earn profit and make a decent living in and once we feel someone makes too much money, we should take the opportunity to remove a lot of those earnings.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:10 PM   #77
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End of Affordable Care Act?

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We should just pick and choose what industries are acceptable to earn profit and make a decent living in and once we feel someone makes too much money, we should take the opportunity to remove a lot of those earnings.

Like with slavery?

If the industry is unjust, screw em. I work in healthcare. I make ok cash. Solve the insurance issues I see on a constant basis and you can cut it in half.

For the record, not calling doctors slave holders. Just suggesting that all industries should be reviewed for their merit. Times change.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:16 PM   #78
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**snip**If the industry is unjust, screw em.

**snip** Just suggesting that all industries should be reviewed for their merit. Times change.
Wow. Who get's the right to determine this? The same people appointed under mob rule?
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:16 PM   #79
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Like with slavery?

If the industry is unjust, screw em. I work in healthcare. I make ok cash. Solve the insurance issues I see on a constant basis and you can cut it in half.

For the record, not calling doctors slave holders. Just suggesting that all industries should be reviewed for their merit. Times change.
WTF does slavery have to do with what I posted? Yikes.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:18 PM   #80
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Wow. Who get's the right to determine this? The same people appointed under mob rule?
This ^^^^. Perhaps we could appoint the ebassist intelligentsia that everyone agrees is 100% right to determine the value we place on each human being, how they should make their living and how much they should make within that living.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:24 PM   #81
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Wee....

I kinda get why people do this now...

To clarify, I don't think it's unfair to review the validity of a given enterprise as time passes. Things once considered viable in the private market often transition into regulated public services, or if considered later immoral get regulated out of existence.

Who decides? Voters. That's how you got the ACA. That's how you might get single payer. Or not. We shall see. But should the citizens decide to nationalize health care and cap wages I've got no problem with it.
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Old 11-20-2015, 12:28 PM   #82
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American Health Care is a Social Darwin Rorschach test.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:11 PM   #83
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A Congress that gave a shit about its constituents would have been tweaking the system since its inception.

Now we have various teams of millionaires trying to bring home the bacon for their overlords. It's kind of like the NFL! The medical lobby is second to none.

I'd rather take my chances with a single payer system.
I think I'm speaking your language here with these pichurz showing the wealth disparity in the US:



It's a huge misconception that we have one party for the wealthy and one part for the common man in our current political binary. Democrats are every bit as in bed with big business as the Republicans are... look at companies like General Electric. We have an large degree of corporatism in the United States these days.

Anyway, my point is - to whom do our elected officials answer? When 10% of the population owns/controls 95% of the total wealth in the country, the answer should be obvious. If/when we transition to a single payer system, it will still be waaaaaaaaaay better for these people than for everyone else. We'll get the rationed care, long waits, and denied treatments. They'll probably establish a private system outside of the universal one - there are already destination fee-for-service hospitals just outside of the US that are used by the wealthy. That would only increase.

I'm not saying single payer isn't the way to go at this point, but it won't be nearly as great as a lot of folks think. Have you ever spoken with someone who is on Medicaid? That would be the experience for a lot of people.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:13 PM   #84
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We should just pick and choose what industries are acceptable to earn profit and make a decent living in and once we feel someone makes too much money, we should take the opportunity to remove a lot of those earnings.
I'm thinking more something like health care being organized by non profit organizations.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:46 PM   #85
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I'm thinking more something like health care being organized by non profit organizations.
Name one non profit that can service 350 million people that is run right?
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:52 PM   #86
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It doesn't have to be a single one. There are hundreds of them doing the job in countries that choose this way.
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Old 11-20-2015, 01:56 PM   #87
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I'm thinking more something like health care being organized by non profit organizations.
There's nothing non-profit about non-profit organizations.
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Old 11-20-2015, 02:10 PM   #88
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There's nothing non-profit about non-profit organizations.
Right like "wireless" networking
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Old 11-20-2015, 02:15 PM   #89
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The way the United States is structured, it would more-than-likely be overseen at a federal level but administered by each state. Things like Medicaid and Foodstamps already are, so I don't see why that wouldn't be the case here.
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Old 11-20-2015, 02:25 PM   #90
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The way the United States is structured, it would more-than-likely be overseen at a federal level but administered by each state. Things like Medicaid and Foodstamps already are, so I don't see why that wouldn't be the case here.
Run individually by the states is the only way it would ever work
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