ebassist dot com  ebassist dot com...
 
 

Go Back   ebassist dot com > stuff... > the best of ebassist...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2010, 02:51 PM   #31
collinwho
Lord, beer me strength.
 
collinwho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 4,937
Quote:
Renfield said... View Post
And here's where the disconnect begins. You know you are playing G-C-D, so start thinking of the fills in the I-IV-V to go with G Major. Me? I wonder how the hell you knew any of this and are able to apply it on the fly in any usable context.
More repetition.

I used to play in a band with a good friend of mine who had a nasty habit of changing keys on the fly. Out of nowhere, a song that used to be in C#m would suddenly be in Dm, because he put his capo on wrong.

Part of what helps with that is that I almost never play open strings. So if I was playing that song in G, and for some reason we are playing it in C now, I don't think of the song as being C - F - G, I still think of it as I - IV - V, just starting on a different I.

Scales are just patterns of intervals, once those patterns sink in, you can move them anywhere on the bass and they will always work.
__________________
Quote:
Eve Hell said... View Post
You I would date. You seem fun.
Quote:
Sugarskull said... View Post
Marry me.
collinwho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 02:55 PM   #32
Kindness
Full Blown Lobstrosity
 
Kindness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 25,108
Quote:
Renfield said... View Post
And here's where the disconnect begins. You know you are playing G-C-D, so start thinking of the fills in the I-IV-V to go with G Major. Me? I wonder how the hell you knew any of this and are able to apply it on the fly in any usable context.
I've suggested this book in the past and I think that it would likely be a good one for you. Not so simple that you'll punch me, but not a true "theory" book that gets too technical too quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/Fingerboard-Ha...1470064&sr=8-1

The shorter answer is once you know the notes of each chord, how they related to each other (the notes and chords) and which chords are being played by the other musicians, you will know how the notes you play will work harmonically against the other instruments.
Kindness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 03:09 PM   #33
Renfield
Wordclock
 
Renfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Not In The Face
Posts: 6,504
Quote:
collinwho said... View Post
Part of what helps with that is that I almost never play open strings. So if I was playing that song in G, and for some reason we are playing it in C now, I don't think of the song as being C - F - G, I still think of it as I - IV - V, just starting on a different I.

Scales are just patterns of intervals, once those patterns sink in, you can move them anywhere on the bass and they will always work.
Interestingly enough, one of the ways I'm breaking myself out of the habit of thinking too strictly on the notes' names/fingering positions instead of place in the key is by sticking a capo on the first fret (been practicing guitar more than bass lately) for no reason other than to mess with my head, make me use only fretted notes and more importantly, make me think of the other notes relationship to what I want to be playing. It's annoying some times, but it is getting easier to find the same notes in different positions now.


Quote:
Kindness said... View Post
I've suggested this book in the past and I think that it would likely be a good one for you. Not so simple that you'll punch me, but not a true "theory" book that gets too technical too quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/Fingerboard-Ha...1470064&sr=8-1

The shorter answer is once you know the notes of each chord, how they related to each other (the notes and chords) and which chords are being played by the other musicians, you will know how the notes you play will work harmonically against the other instruments.
"Properly" learning some chords on guitar is going a long way to help. After getting comfortable playing the chord, I've started breaking down it's notes and trying to figure out where they are in the scale, then play it out as an arpeggiated run, as opposed to a single strum.

The only problem with this is a severely aggravating one for me... I've broken my left hand ring finger in the past and it no longer bends at the normal angle, it actually overlaps behind the middle to the point of crossing behind it making it mostly useless when trying to finger many conventional chords. I'm starting to accept that I may not be able to play guitar with normal tuning and chords.

I've bookmarked that link, thanks.
Renfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 03:44 PM   #34
FloydianAnimal
Sports gEEk
 
FloydianAnimal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 3,237
Send a message via AIM to FloydianAnimal
Quote:
MTMTEX said... View Post
I found this website very helpful after switching to a 6 string.

http://www.studybass.com/tools/chord...-note-printer
Great site, should come in handy since I tend to tune my 5 string CEADG and it allows custom tunings
FloydianAnimal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 03:52 PM   #35
Renfield
Wordclock
 
Renfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Not In The Face
Posts: 6,504
Quote:
FloydianAnimal said... View Post
Great site, should come in handy since I tend to tune my 5 string CEADG and it allows custom tunings
Why on earth do you do that?
Renfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 04:14 PM   #36
Kindness
Full Blown Lobstrosity
 
Kindness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 25,108
Quote:
Renfield said... View Post
"Properly" learning some chords on guitar is going a long way to help. After getting comfortable playing the chord, I've started breaking down it's notes and trying to figure out where they are in the scale, then play it out as an arpeggiated run, as opposed to a single strum.

The only problem with this is a severely aggravating one for me... I've broken my left hand ring finger in the past and it no longer bends at the normal angle, it actually overlaps behind the middle to the point of crossing behind it making it mostly useless when trying to finger many conventional chords. I'm starting to accept that I may not be able to play guitar with normal tuning and chords.

I've bookmarked that link, thanks.
I pick up a guitar once or twice a year. Most of the chords I know I've never even fingered on a guitar. You can learn all the chords without ever playing them or even holding a guitar.
Kindness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 06:36 PM   #37
FloydianAnimal
Sports gEEk
 
FloydianAnimal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 3,237
Send a message via AIM to FloydianAnimal
Quote:
Renfield said... View Post
Why on earth do you do that?
My guitarist plays in Drop C. I used to play a 4 string tuned to Drop C, CGCF, but didn't like the feel of that tuning on a 4 string- even with custom string sets. So I tuned up the low B of a 5 string so I ended up with CEADG. It was easier since it's a metal band and there's a fair amount of riffs that pedal on the low C. As such, it would be a PITA to try to fret that note at the 1st fret instead of just having it be an open note...
FloydianAnimal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 07:08 PM   #38
Cpt. Spliff
Senior citizen
 
Cpt. Spliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Scania
Posts: 1,166
Quote:
bassaussie said... View Post
But where? The sharp notes are OK, they're good for heavy metal. But if I want to play blues, I need the flat notes.
They are in post 16.
__________________
"Too many basses is not enough"/ ferm
"I'm not young enough to know everything"/ Oscar Wilde
Cpt. Spliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2010, 07:52 PM   #39
Mr.Mow
Doodle
 
Mr.Mow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,314
My knowledge is limited.. but..
I spent 5 years becoming increasingly frustrated by guitard teachers trying to confuse me with 'oh this is a mixolydiian scale, this is a phrygian etc etc'..

I'd stay up all night trying to memorize scales and chords and all this stuff, could never figure out 'hey that guys not smart, but he's a great guitarist, how does he remember all this stuff?!'

Then I found my current bass teacher (Lonermatt has used him too), on our first lesson I explained my woes, he replied with 'look, I'm a lazy man, I've spent my life trying to figure out the bare minimum I need.. what scales do you know? Do you know a Major scale?', I showed him I did.. 'good, that means you really know ALL the scales' and proceeded to show me how the Major is the same as the minor, the same as the Dom7, the same as the Diminished etc..

It was a sudden moment.. So many so called 'teachers' cannot explain the basics, once you know the 5 (or is it 6?) shapes of the major scale, you pretty much know the basics of all scales. (ok, there are exceptions, but I'm taking real world scales).

As for learning notes on the board, I just know the dots.. 3rd is G, 5th is A, 7th is B, 12 is E.. I know a C always sits under the G, a D is always under the A and E sits under the B.

5ths are down and across, octaves are under them.

I'm a simple dude, I try not to complicate things.. I started late as it is, I don't have time to stuff about!
Mr.Mow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 03:44 AM   #40
Drippin' Robin
Liberal Euro Traitor Scum
 
Drippin' Robin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark
Posts: 4,570
I shall be watching this thread, as a death metal hack of a bass player.
__________________
Quote:
mlwarriner said...
the first rule of surprise buttsecks club is you don't talk about surprise buttsecks club.
Winner of the Zamfir Post Of The Day Award!! 23-Jan-09
Winner of the basshunter Post Of The Week Award!! 13-May-09
Drippin' Robin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:08 AM   #41
Renfield
Wordclock
 
Renfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Not In The Face
Posts: 6,504
Quote:
FloydianAnimal said... View Post
My guitarist plays in Drop C. I used to play a 4 string tuned to Drop C, CGCF, but didn't like the feel of that tuning on a 4 string- even with custom string sets. So I tuned up the low B of a 5 string so I ended up with CEADG. It was easier since it's a metal band and there's a fair amount of riffs that pedal on the low C. As such, it would be a PITA to try to fret that note at the 1st fret instead of just having it be an open note...
I'm with you. I was briefly in the same boat. I debated alt tuning one string, but figured it would mess with my head when doing a run of any kind. I'm used to standard intervals and Drop D intervals, but not some mutant hybrid between. So instead I tuned UP one half step from BEADG to CFA#D#G# and everything fell into place.
Renfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:26 AM   #42
solderjunkie
Deprecated
 
solderjunkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nastyville TN
Posts: 6,673
Drop-tunings of any kind really screw with my head... even "relative" ones where all pitches are dropped (or raised) equally.

The reason is... when I hear a "D", my fingers automatically go to the fifth fret on the "A" string.

I actually have a very good ear and can pick notes from the air, but I don't know where all the other notes are on the 'board. ie... If you asked me to play every "D" on the 'board it would take me a second or two to find them all.
__________________
Brett
solderjunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 07:37 AM   #43
+homas
Senior Member
 
+homas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: the Starved Rock State Park area
Posts: 7,070
Quote:
t3ch said... View Post
I have an iPhone app. How else?
Actually, I've been using an iPhone app to get more comfortable with the notes on the fingerboard.
I learned bass clef playing trombone in school band; then treble clef when I learned piano in the interim between trombone & bass guitar. I also took 4 semesters of theory at the local college. When I approached the piano, I always thought of what actual notes I was playing. But when I picked up bass guitar, I never thought of the actual notes at all. Rather, I always thought in terms of intervals. It was lazyness on my part, but hell, it's only rock n roll!
Playing for church finally got me comfortable with notes on the fingerboard, but I've been out of that loop for more than a few years now. Doing 100% improv is even worse as it's so free. So yeah, iPhone app for me.
+homas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:31 AM   #44
CraigV
2.0 Anyone?
 
CraigV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,674
Send a message via AIM to CraigV
Quote:
burdizzos said... View Post
I don't know what my defect is, but I've have tried so many times to understand this, and it never makes sense. Is a particular mode a scale starting on the same tonic in every case, or can any tonic be used to start?

I'm SO dumb on music theory.
CraigV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:35 AM   #45
t3ch
cucklord 9000
 
t3ch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: a safe space
Posts: 63,047
Quote:
Kindness said... View Post
I've suggested this book in the past and I think that it would likely be a good one for you. Not so simple that you'll punch me, but not a true "theory" book that gets too technical too quickly.

http://www.amazon.com/Fingerboard-Ha...1470064&sr=8-1

The shorter answer is once you know the notes of each chord, how they related to each other (the notes and chords) and which chords are being played by the other musicians, you will know how the notes you play will work harmonically against the other instruments.
Wait a second... this isn't the theory book I've seen you recommend a few times that I went out and bought.

Quote:
T. Alan Smith said... View Post
Actually, I've been using an iPhone app to get more comfortable with the notes on the fingerboard.
I learned bass clef playing trombone in school band; then treble clef when I learned piano in the interim between trombone & bass guitar. I also took 4 semesters of theory at the local college. When I approached the piano, I always thought of what actual notes I was playing. But when I picked up bass guitar, I never thought of the actual notes at all. Rather, I always thought in terms of intervals. It was lazyness on my part, but hell, it's only rock n roll!
Playing for church finally got me comfortable with notes on the fingerboard, but I've been out of that loop for more than a few years now. Doing 100% improv is even worse as it's so free. So yeah, iPhone app for me.
I was being a smartass, but I wasn't lying. I have two fretboard applications, one of which was posted by a member on HC and I got a free download. I'll ring it up when I'm bored sometimes.
__________________
My 3-year-old daughter just looked at me very gravely and said, quite clearly: "Dad, Rainbow Dash is my favorite special pony friend." - Droplede
Without t3ch, this place would quickly be revealed to be a thin tissue of lies. - Jasper383
Your backtalk:sandwich ratio is astronomically out of whack - C7

t3ch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:40 AM   #46
bassplayer7770
bp770770707707000077707
 
bassplayer7770's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North of Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,505
Quote:
CraigV said... View Post
I don't know what my defect is, but I've have tried so many times to understand this, and it never makes sense. Is a particular mode a scale starting on the same tonic in every case, or can any tonic be used to start?

I'm SO dumb on music theory.
I assume you know the C Major scale?

Ionian - I - CDEFGABC
Dorian - ii - DEFGABCD
Phrygian - iii - EFGABCDE
Lydian - IV - FGABCDEF
Mixolydian - V - GABCDEFG
Aeolian - vi - ABCDEFGA
Locrian - vii - BCDEFGAB
__________________
Gear: StingRay 5 HS, Yamaha BB3000MA, Hanewinckel Vintage Draken 5-String, Ibanez ATK305, Aguilar Tone Hammer, ART Pro Channel pre, Crown XLS 1500, LDS 15/6.5 cab, Turbo Tuner ST-200, Xotic Bass BB Pre, Aguilar Filter Twin, Demeter Compulator
bassplayer7770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:42 AM   #47
Renfield
Wordclock
 
Renfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Not In The Face
Posts: 6,504
Quote:
bassplayer7770 said... View Post
I assume you know the C Major scale?

Ionian - I - CDEFGABC
Dorian - ii - DEFGABCD
Phrygian - iii - EFGABCDE
Lydian - IV - FGABCDEF
Mixolydian - V - GABCDEFG
Aeolian - vi - ABCDEFGA
Locrian - vii - BCDEFGAB
Gesundheit
Renfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:44 AM   #48
citizenralph
Seen Your Member
 
citizenralph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 9L/27R
Posts: 5,043
Quote:
solderjunkie said... View Post
This was mentioned in Mow's thread about his guitarist and a scale-sheet.

I do not know all the fretted notes on my neck... mainly because I'm a punk-rock hack of a bass player. I use several sound/memory fills and walks.

How did the "learned" of you learn???
Quote:
mlwarriner said... View Post


(from another punk-rock hack of a bass player)
I didn't think Punk Rockers concerned themselves with things like "notes" or "being in tune"?
__________________
www.expo76.com
citizenralph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:52 AM   #49
CraigV
2.0 Anyone?
 
CraigV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,674
Send a message via AIM to CraigV
Quote:
bassplayer7770 said... View Post
I assume you know the C Major scale?

Ionian - I - CDEFGABC
Dorian - ii - DEFGABCD
Phrygian - iii - EFGABCDE
Lydian - IV - FGABCDEF
Mixolydian - V - GABCDEFG
Aeolian - vi - ABCDEFGA
Locrian - vii - BCDEFGAB
Yes, know C maj. So C maj is Ionian? Always and only?
CraigV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:56 AM   #50
collinwho
Lord, beer me strength.
 
collinwho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 4,937
Quote:
CraigV said... View Post
Yes, know C maj. So C maj is Ionian? Always and only?
The major scale is always Ionian, C is just being used as an example here.
collinwho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:57 AM   #51
bassplayer7770
bp770770707707000077707
 
bassplayer7770's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North of Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,505
Quote:
CraigV said... View Post
Yes, know C maj. So C maj is Ionian? Always and only?
Playing the C Major scale starting on C is the Ionian mode. Playing the C Major scale starting on D is the Dorian mode. All the notes are exactly the same, but you start on a different note.
bassplayer7770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 08:58 AM   #52
bassplayer7770
bp770770707707000077707
 
bassplayer7770's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North of Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 2,505
Quote:
collinwho said... View Post
The major scale is always Ionian, C is just being used as an example here.
What he said because the C Major scale is an easy example to use.
bassplayer7770 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 09:08 AM   #53
collinwho
Lord, beer me strength.
 
collinwho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mpls, MN
Posts: 4,937
Quote:
bassplayer7770 said... View Post
Playing the C Major scale starting on C is the Ionian mode. Playing the C Major scale starting on D is the Dorian mode. All the notes are exactly the same, but you start on a different note.
Exactly. And that scale would be called the D Dorian Scale. You can think of it as (Starting note) + (Intervals).

Some people try to remember where the half steps are in each of the modes, but that is confusing. The easiest way for me to figure out the intervals in the D Dorian scale is to use the same method as bp7770 here, knowing Dorian comes from the 2nd scale tone, I go a whole step down and use the C Maj scale, but starting on the 2 (D).
collinwho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 09:32 AM   #54
Otis The Bulldog
Another Masshole Deadhead
 
Otis The Bulldog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somerville, MA
Posts: 3,765
Quote:
cdb said... View Post
I learned by practicing scales, and saying the notes to myself in my head as I hit them. That was along time ago, but I remember where everything is.
This is effective (though I've slacked off mightily)

In addition to scales, play arpeggios and inversions of the arpeggios and sing out the notes. Play the scales and arpeggios two octave and sing out the notes. Play a new key each day.

This above advice needs a grounding in the modes, but that really isn't very difficult.

And if you don't want to learn the theory or modes, my advice would be to just pick a pattern or bass run that you know and transpose it somewhere else on the neck, play it slowly and sing out each note as you play it.
Otis The Bulldog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 09:37 AM   #55
absintheXIII
Blunt Bard
 
absintheXIII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vault 101
Posts: 2,994
My brain just melted.
__________________
"A Druid is a Bard before he is a Priest, for music is the key to the universe."
absintheXIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 10:11 AM   #56
Kindness
Full Blown Lobstrosity
 
Kindness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 25,108
Quote:
t3ch said... View Post
Wait a second... this isn't the theory book I've seen you recommend a few times that I went out and bought.
You're right! I made a mistake in this thread (though the book I posted is fine). Where is the one I really like...

I can't find it.
Kindness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 11:27 AM   #57
t3ch
cucklord 9000
 
t3ch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: a safe space
Posts: 63,047
Quote:
Kindness said... View Post
You're right! I made a mistake in this thread (though the book I posted is fine). Where is the one I really like...

I can't find it.
Harmony and Theory?

t3ch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 11:30 AM   #58
Kindness
Full Blown Lobstrosity
 
Kindness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 25,108
Yes, thank you!

http://www.amazon.com/Harmony-Theory...1544188&sr=8-1

That's the one.
Kindness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 11:40 AM   #59
mrcrow
been around before
 
mrcrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south west cornwall
Posts: 6,524
Quote:
solderjunkie said... View Post
This was mentioned in Mow's thread about his guitarist and a scale-sheet.

I do not know all the fretted notes on my neck... mainly because I'm a punk-rock hack of a bass player. I use several sound/memory fills and walks.

How did the "learned" of you learn???
get a chart of the fretted notes...start with D on the A string...5th fret...and then learn the notes up and down...thats about all you need for the kind of music i play...frets 1-10 on all strings (4)
__________________
"Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety"
...for the above read....
"Good bye EU, hello GREAT BRITAIN"
mrcrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2010, 11:51 AM   #60
absintheXIII
Blunt Bard
 
absintheXIII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vault 101
Posts: 2,994
You guys are so making me go study the fretboard now.





absintheXIII is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.